posted
More on topic, my mom just bought this book for someone she knows in Mexico who requested that she pick it up for him. We briefly talked about Marc Driscoll, and I remember saying "I think that's the guy that is so controversial... I haven't heard great things about him". and then this article popped up this week.
Posts: 10663 | From: portland, living in mexico | Reg: Sep 2002
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posted
I tend to think Driscoll quickly got out of his depth with explosive growth and has no idea of the dangers of his organizational structure versus intentionally trying to create a malicious, controlling environment. At the same time he's created a realm where lots of those stories sound like they could easily interchange "Mars Hill" with "Church of Scientology".
Of course, on a certain level, my criticism is perhaps less flattering: it's not that he's a cult leader, it's just that his own emotional and psychological limitations and his ministry ethos create an environment ripe for the power hungry and sociopathic to gain positions of authority. I don't think Driscoll is a sociopath, but I do think that a sociopath would have a trivial time manipulating a guy like Driscoll.
posted
A buddy of mine who's part of a traditional reformed church has a bit of a fit every time Driscoll is mentioned; I believe his last summary was something along the lines of "Mark Driscoll is what happens when someone reads the Wikipedia page on Calvinism, then extrapolates the rest based on personal Ed Hardy aesthetics."
In general I tend towards roops' take: it's safer to assume that someone is blundering into unhealthy decisions than it is to assume that they are some sort of machiavellian schemer. On the other hand, I think there are a lot of things that Driscoll deliberately advocates and does that are dangerous and unhealthy per se.
The sexuality/marriage stuff stands out because it's a big part of his new book. In particular, the way that he describes his relationship with his wife and explicitly holds it up as an example of what others should strive for. Some awesome excerpts include:
quote:In this season we shifted into ministry-and-family mode, neglecting our intimacy and failing to work through our issues. This became apparent to me when my pregnant wife came home from a hair appointment with her previously long hair (that I loved) chopped off and replaced with a short mommish haircut. She asked what I thought, and could tell from the look on my face. She had put a mom’s need for convenience before being a wife. She wept. (11)
In another part of the book, he talks about the dangers of sexual sin, and his example is the fact that his wife messed around with another guy in high school.
quote:One night…I had a dream in which I saw some things that shook me to my core. I saw in painful detail Grace sinning sexually during a senior trip she took after high school when we had just started dating. It was like watching a film–something I cannot really explain but the kind of revelation I sometimes receive…Had I known about this sin, I would not have married her.
In several of his sermons, he tells others to "protect their wives" and offers his own conduct as an example. When she (a year older than he) went off to college, he drove 500 miles to her co-ed dorm and knocked on the door of every male student, warning them that if they "talked to her or looked at her" he would fight them. He brags about protecting her by always making her sit against the wall when they're eating out, while he faces the door -- so that "If something bad goes down, I can take care of it."
When his church reshuffled the pastoral leadership team -- coincidentally kicking out several pastors who'd differed with Mark on various points of doctrine or leadership style -- he gave a public sermon about how much easier everything would be if he "could just punch people. No lawyers, no anything. Just BAM, I win."
On the subject of mixed martial arts, he's said repeatedly that he thinks it's one of the highest expressions of biblical masculinity. He's taken flack for asking his followers to "share their hilarious stories of feminized, 'anatomically male' worship leaders." And he insist that Jesus was a big-biceped hell-raiser, because "I could never worship someone I could beat up."
So... while I'm sympathetic to Roops' kinder interpretation, it's hard not to think there's something more than simple inexperience at play. Mark Driscoll, as best as I can tell, relates to the world the way someone who's been traumatized by violence does. Everything -- EVERYTHING! -- is an amped-up-to-11 challenge to his space, his authority, his domain. He establishes himself by always being ready to meet violence with violence, and perceives the world around him as a series of one-up/one-down relationships, culminating in Jesus Above Everybody, Because He Was The Most Hardcore. His preaching on marriage relationships are skewed to a ridiculous extreme, with all examples of "servanthood" describing ways that women can serve the sexual needs of men while all examples of "selfishness" and "betrayal" describe ways that his wife has fallen short of Christian ideals via lack of sexual availability and/or attractiveness.
I don't think he's a sociopath either, but there's definitely something dark that meshes tightly with the tightly controlled authoritative structure of Mars Hill Church.
One of the most interesting discussions of Driscoll that I've read recently was from a woman named Stephanie with some first-hand experience:
quote:I live in Seattle and have been in group therapy sessions with women who attend Mars Hill church and are experiencing profound depression and anxiety secondary to the role they are pressured to play as members of Driscoll's church. They have all said that they were asked to quit their jobs and start having babies so they did in order to be "obedient wives." But they are deteriorating from the inside out. They must defer to their husbands and aren't even allowed to seek counseling outside of Mars Hill church. If they don't do what they are told they are subject to church discipline, and if people leave Mars Hill church the remaining members are told not to talk to the people who left anymore. It's a very unhealthy and controlling system. The things that Driscoll says in this book are often couched in "but don't be controlling or misogynistic" but there is indeed a strong system in place that doesn't allow the women freedom of choice and by the same token, a strong system in place that doesn't allow the men freedom to do anything the elders don't allow.
The women that I have been with in counseling sessions are anxious they will be found out that they are even there because as members they're not allowed to seek outside counseling, but they say the therapy Mars Hill offers is just to "obey their husbands better" and "pray more." The dozen or so women I know in this situation are extremely depressed and each have several children and I see their families eroding from the inside out. I see Mars Hill as very much a totalitarian regime, and as someone who grew up under significant spiritual abuse, I'm really sensitive to this sort of thing.
If it also helps give you context, I've been married 13 years and have two children.
quote:Originally posted by verb: So... while I'm sympathetic to Roops' kinder interpretation, it's hard not to think there's something more than simple inexperience at play.
Inexperience is part of it. He certainly does have direct influence on the congregation that is negative due to his issues. I agree with your identification with the most glaring, especially in regards to gender subjects. I'd emphasize though that his personality and psychological issues make him an easy target for manipulation and control. I'd have a sneaking suspicion some of the inner circle view him as a useful figurehead and are the real masterminds driving leadership consolidation and setting cultural standards to make the place their playground. Hearing about insecure 20-something males being made community group leaders over older families in an authoritarian hierarchy church structure is pretty hilarious.
He created a monster, and his issues fed it and will let it control him, and by extension Mars Hill as a whole.
posted
Those excerpts of Marc's experiences with his wife are MESSED UP. First of all - mad because she cut her hair? GIVE ME A BREAK. That should not make her cry.
And his statement that he would not have married her if he had known she'd "sinned sexually" as a teenager? What about forgiveness, about grace (no pun intended)??
For goodness sakes. If I, as a female, was a part of a community that conducted itself like this I, too, would have anxiety and SERIOUS self-esteem issues.
And let's not even get into the conversation about singles in their church, who must feel like utter crap.
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quote:Originally posted by Meghan: Those excerpts of Marc's experiences with his wife are MESSED UP. First of all - mad because she cut her hair? GIVE ME A BREAK. That should not make her cry.
i mean, if i were dealing with pregnancy hormones and had just received a death look from my insane husband for getting a haircut, i might cry too.
anyway, agreed, meghan. all that stuff's seriously disturbing.
I just left a church like Mars Hill. Ironically, anything and everything our (32 year old inexperienced pastor) quoted was from, you guessed it, Mark Driscoll. In fact, so similar were the teachings that the whole "Doctrine: What Christians SHOULD Believe" was a 6 week series our church did in preparation for ANOTHER series on "church membership" which basically said that women had no business being leaders of any kind.
It is so eerily similar to Mars Hill and the article posted in this thread that it's downright scary.
Intuitively, I knew something wasn't right with this church. I kept going, but every sermon I would come home feeling guilty. Like it was "all too much to live up to." The sermons would FEED my preexisting neuroses. I would feel like I didn't measure up, like I kept needing to "DO MORE" to be "right with God." They were all so high-pressure. It lacked grace. Completely and utterly devoid of grace. At community group (which was led by another 30 year old co-pastor) I would say things that weren't always necessarily "doctrinally sound" (ha) and would get corrected on it. If I said anything remotely "outside the box" an uncomfortable silence would follow. So after community group I ALSO would come home crying.
They all look, act, dress, and think alike. They're all "best friends" and it is a social club more than a church.
posted
I keep trying to ironically post things that Mark Driscoll would say as responses to Steph, Carroll, and Meghan's posts. I just can't do it.
Like delivering Archie Bunker's lines with a straight face, I just cannot bring myself to type Mark Driscoll quotes without dissolving into giggles. It's just kind of ridiculous.
quote:"Masturbation can be a form of homosexuality because it is a sexual act that does not involve a woman. [A]ny man who does so without his wife in the room is bordering on homosexual activity, particularly if he’s watching himself in a mirror and being turned on by his own male body."
posted
Man, my biggest fear is that somehow Driscoll and the Reformed church become synonymous to some of you. I don't want you all to think that Mars Hill represents Reformation theology, or the Reformed Church on a whole.
quote:Man, my biggest fear is that somehow Driscoll and the Reformed church become synonymous to some of you. I don't want you all to think that Mars Hill represents Reformation theology, or the Reformed Church on a whole.
No, I totally associate Mark Driscoll with Ed Hardy shirts and repressed emotional issues, not Reformation theology.
posted
Andy, I came across a blog called UNReformed when reading some of these articles and posts about Mars Hill. The "About" page contained the following:
quote:UNReformed is named such because two years ago I enjoyed the blissful ignorance of being completely unaware of the cultural trends within American Christianity at large. I knew not who John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, Josh Harris or C.J. Mahaney were. I didn't know what Acts29 Network, Gospel Coalition, Desiring God Conference or The Resurgence was.
When people mentioned "Reformed" I thought it was just a fancy way of saying Protestant.... I didn't realize it was the hip new thing for the Post Modern church.
Since getting plugged into Mars Hill in early 2011, I have learned all these things ad nauseum. I have read two Keller books and had countless discussions with people about Reformed this and Reformed that and Ultra-reformed and Young Restless and Reformed and met a lot of people who read books by people who read the Bible but don't actually read the Bible themselves.
So yes, people are getting the wrong idea about what it means to be reformed because of people like Mark Driscoll.
(p e t e)
Posts: 4523 | From: second largest wyoming in the us | Reg: Oct 2000
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quote:When people mentioned "Reformed" I thought it was just a fancy way of saying Protestant.... I didn't realize it was the hip new thing for the Post Modern church.
Along with that new hipster trend they're calling "Orthodoxy."
posted
i would "like" your latest post if i could, verb.
also, i'd imagine marc driscoll's response to my previous post would say something about how his wife was shedding tears of true repentance and probably if i did less typing and more weeping maybe i wouldn't go to hell. he'd probably manage to make it more offensive than that, though.
quote:Originally posted by p e t e: Andy, I came across a blog called UNReformed when reading some of these articles and posts about Mars Hill. The "About" page contained the following:
quote:UNReformed is named such because two years ago I enjoyed the blissful ignorance of being completely unaware of the cultural trends within American Christianity at large. I knew not who John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Tim Keller, Josh Harris or C.J. Mahaney were. I didn't know what Acts29 Network, Gospel Coalition, Desiring God Conference or The Resurgence was.
When people mentioned "Reformed" I thought it was just a fancy way of saying Protestant.... I didn't realize it was the hip new thing for the Post Modern church.
Since getting plugged into Mars Hill in early 2011, I have learned all these things ad nauseum. I have read two Keller books and had countless discussions with people about Reformed this and Reformed that and Ultra-reformed and Young Restless and Reformed and met a lot of people who read books by people who read the Bible but don't actually read the Bible themselves.
So yes, people are getting the wrong idea about what it means to be reformed because of people like Mark Driscoll.
(p e t e)
Sigh. That's great...no really. Come on. (I'm fine w/ Keller. He IS actually Reformed). When I read Young, Restless, Reformed I had a HUGE problem w/ the fact that the book was all full of charismatics and baptists wearing that label. Michael Horton was the only voice of reason in that book, saying things like how we view the sacraments and whatnot actually matter and are just much part of being Reformed as believing in predestination. I am VERY VERY uncomfortable w/ this "new Calvinist" movement. Its very new and not so Calvinist.
quote:When people mentioned "Reformed" I thought it was just a fancy way of saying Protestant.... I didn't realize it was the hip new thing for the Post Modern church.
Along with that new hipster trend they're calling "Orthodoxy."
Being "reformed" or holding "orthodox" views may have been hijacked by a few "hipsters"...but in no way do those two things have much to do with being "hip". It has more to do with Christians actually getting serious about their faith, their theology, and rejecting liberal, post-modern ideas of what "church" should be. conservative denominations like the PCA (Presbyterian Church of America), Orthodox Presbyterian, United Reformed, Anglican (ACNA), Reformed Episcopal, and Confessing Lutheran Churches have all seen an increase in younger people who are tired of Rob Bell/McClaren, recycled humanism ala "emergent", rock band laser light worship, and all the other spiritual masturbation that has become what the American church stands for. It isn't "hip" to be reciting liturgy, creeds, and actually believing what the Bible says. It's way more "hip" to attach yourself to liberal social causes.
Instead of reading Driscoll people should be reading Dr. Horton, Riddlebarger, Machen, Ryle, Packer, Sproul, Calvin, Luther, and the Book Of Common Prayer 1662 or 1928. etc...
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posted
You know, I was actually just going to note that I was being sarcastic in mentioning the "Hipster Orthodoxy" thing. The idea I was getting at was that anyone who considered "reformed" or "Orthodox" to be some new catch phrase is worthy of a triple-picard-facepalm.
But I think you bring up something important and interesting that's worth considering:
quote: It has more to do with Christians actually getting serious about their faith, their theology, and rejecting liberal, post-modern ideas of what "church" should be.
That sentiment is hipsterism, though. "Those fair-weather Kinks fans don't truly appreciate the vital historical importance of Dave Davies's amp modifications! They just watched Rushmore and wanted to sound like they knew some 'Old Music!'"
It seems like best critique of neo-whateverism is to take it at its word and detail the doctrinal differences between the "new" beliefs being offered up, and the "old" ones that whose names are being co-opted. Falling back on a simple "They're not the REAL deal, they're just in it for the gravitas!" critique doesn't actually do that -- it turns into the theological equivalent of "whose favorite band is more obscure."
The problems I have with Mark Driscoll are directly related to what he believes, what he preaches and teaches, and how he runs his church. That he calls himself 'Reformed' or that he used to be 'Emergent' are trivia, IMO. Admittedly, I don't have much of a stake in it -- he's not making me look bad so there's not a lot of emotional investment in the particular labels. I understand that it's more of a hot-button for those who feel he's appropriating.
posted
Sadly it has become a "catch-phrase"...and much of it has less to do with the Protestant Reformation and more to do with being a "flavor of the month". I don't associate being "Reformed" with being a theological hipster. I just think it's theologically correct. There are a few people who co-opt it...but true Reformed theological denominations would hardly be classified as "hip". More the antithesis of it...because I can guarantee that my church is not "hip"...but Word and Sacrament are preached boldly every week. Those two things will never be "hip".
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